Comments on: Another Great Deception… http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/ ...we must grow towards the light of truth... Thu, 04 Dec 2008 05:30:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Jimmy Mac http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3551 Jimmy Mac Tue, 22 Jul 2008 00:13:05 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3551 JF_54, if you are still out there, I came across this in my studies and thought of you: Hebrews 10:24-25 Let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. I am still praying that you may find a Christ centered church. God bless JF_54, if you are still out there,

I came across this in my studies and thought of you:

Hebrews 10:24-25
Let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

I am still praying that you may find a Christ centered church.

God bless

]]> By: Terri Jo http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3521 Terri Jo Sat, 19 Jul 2008 03:57:52 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3521 Hi all, Such great communication as always. Thank you Jedi 12 for that refresher course. I like that one also. Dianna, yes, you are very correct. Worship, Fellowship and Bible Study should never be about a business, but there is a business aspect of a church. Because the world has put so many stringent laws on Churches you must have an attorney, open a Corporation, get legal with the IRS and go through the rigorous duties of getting a 501C3 approved by the IRS so the Church does not get into legal trouble for Tithes, Church and State, and protection from those people who just want to see the Churches shut down. This part of it is a business and there is no other colorful way to look at it. Believe me when I say this is a very humbling and stressful part of opening a Church. Someone has to go through all the legalities. Once all the legalities are done they never go away and therefore have to be overseen by someone. During the week, all the tithes have to be recorded and reported to the IRS and the Corporation commission. This is the business aspect of it and that is just a small part of it. A Church has many people who come for many reasons, you would hope and pray that it is just to worship, but in the real world that is just a small part. There are phone calls to make every day for counsel, there are hospital visits to make, there are sermons to plan and bible studies, and music to get together. Is this still not a business to you because I can go on!!!! All in All, yes, it is Christ's Church and with his love and grace all these duties are done by someone who has committed whole heart and soul to Him. Without the protection and guidence from God none of this would be made possible and there would be no Churches to speak of. I love going to worship on Sundays and laying all at the foot of the Cross, it is so rewarding to see what God has done, but please dont ever think for one minute that there is no business aspect to the Church because most never know what all is involved to be able to open those doors for all to come. Once you do you appreciate just that much more the awesome greatness of our God!!!!!!! Sorry to ramble, just very passionate about my Church. Hi all,
Such great communication as always. Thank you Jedi 12 for that refresher course. I like that one also. Dianna, yes, you are very correct. Worship, Fellowship and Bible Study should never be about a business, but there is a business aspect of a church.

Because the world has put so many stringent laws on Churches you must have an attorney, open a Corporation, get legal with the IRS and go through the rigorous duties of getting a 501C3 approved by the IRS so the Church does not get into legal trouble for Tithes, Church and State, and protection from those people who just want to see the Churches shut down. This part of it is a business and there is no other colorful way to look at it. Believe me when I say this is a very humbling and stressful part of opening a Church. Someone has to go through all the legalities. Once all the legalities are done they never go away and therefore have to be overseen by someone. During the week, all the tithes have to be recorded and reported to the IRS and the Corporation commission. This is the business aspect of it and that is just a small part of it.

A Church has many people who come for many reasons, you would hope and pray that it is just to worship, but in the real world that is just a small part. There are phone calls to make every day for counsel, there are hospital visits to make, there are sermons to plan and bible studies, and music to get together. Is this still not a business to you because I can go on!!!!

All in All, yes, it is Christ’s Church and with his love and grace all these duties are done by someone who has committed whole heart and soul to Him. Without the protection and guidence from God none of this would be made possible and there would be no Churches to speak of.

I love going to worship on Sundays and laying all at the foot of the Cross, it is so rewarding to see what God has done, but please dont ever think for one minute that there is no business aspect to the Church because most never know what all is involved to be able to open those doors for all to come. Once you do you appreciate just that much more the awesome greatness of our God!!!!!!!

Sorry to ramble, just very passionate about my Church.

]]> By: Dianna http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3520 Dianna Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:02:17 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3520 A church is a business????? wow, I must say, thats scarrrrryyyyy! I think that is the worst thing anyone can say about a church. A church is made up of people, we all are part, we all have gifts and work together as a whole, no one person should ever stand out over someone else! We are all working "not as a job" to glorify christ! Not be a business! A church is a business????? wow, I must say, thats scarrrrryyyyy! I think that is the worst thing anyone can say about a church. A church is made up of people, we all are part, we all have gifts and work together as a whole, no one person should ever stand out over someone else! We are all working “not as a job” to glorify christ! Not be a business!

]]> By: Jedi 12 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3516 Jedi 12 Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:34:30 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3516 Everyone, I really like what Pastor Larry wrote in his article Take a Little off the Sides Please! Take a second and go back to it and read. We have such a hard time with things that we do not understand. It is the responsibility of the pastors to guide us and manage Christ's church. Trust that God is in control. http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/05/23/take-a-little-off-the-sides-please/ Watch out for my saber, it's not sharp but it is to a point. Everyone, I really like what Pastor Larry wrote in his article Take a Little off the Sides Please! Take a second and go back to it and read. We have such a hard time with things that we do not understand. It is the responsibility of the pastors to guide us and manage Christ’s church. Trust that God is in control.

http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/05/23/take-a-little-off-the-sides-please/

Watch out for my saber, it’s not sharp but it is to a point.

]]> By: Sheep Herder http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3515 Sheep Herder Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:30:42 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3515 First, I want to say it's great to see this blog rollin', Diana, I don't want to get way of course so I will share with you a couple of question to ponder. That were give to me a few years ago as I too was in a similar situation. Who is the head of the church? Christ What is a church? All those that live for Christ What is a member? Those that live for Christ What are your real entitlements as a member? Submission and suffering for the glory of God Who appoints the leadership in Christ's church? Christ Who are we as members to challenge Christ? ............... If one know biblically that the church they belong does not walk in the counsel of the Lord and have tried to work through it with God and the church leadership, leave and don't look back. Take great caution though, is it that you are fleeing a Satan infested congregation or are you being exposed to the light and not liking it. Psalm 125:4 O Lord, do good to those who are good,whose hearts are in tune with you. First, I want to say it’s great to see this blog rollin’,

Diana,
I don’t want to get way of course so I will share with you a couple of question to ponder. That were give to me a few years ago as I too was in a similar situation.

Who is the head of the church? Christ
What is a church? All those that live for Christ
What is a member? Those that live for Christ
What are your real entitlements as a member? Submission and suffering for the glory of God
Who appoints the leadership in Christ’s church? Christ
Who are we as members to challenge Christ? ……………

If one know biblically that the church they belong does not walk in the counsel of the Lord and have tried to work through it with God and the church leadership, leave and don’t look back.

Take great caution though, is it that you are fleeing a Satan infested congregation or are you being exposed to the light and not liking it.

Psalm 125:4
O Lord, do good to those who are good,whose hearts are in tune with you.

]]> By: Kavi http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3514 Kavi Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:29:34 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3514 Dianna, I disagree not everyone should have a say in everything. If you want to take a vote on what to serve at the Christmas luncheon sure,what the kids should wear for thier Easter song sure,What ould be a resonable amount to pay for rent on the building down the street NO!!! Just as in the work place does your boss come to you for your vote when he wants to give raises or when he wants to go with a new insurance company? NO!!! The church, in the structural,sense is run as a business and that business is looked after by the officers of that business e.g. Presiden,Vice President, Treasurer.Those are the people who make the decisions not the workers. As far as the song if the person is spiritually mature and not doing it for self glorification then perhaps they should be allowed to sing, But the Pastor should be the one to make the decision because hopefully he would know if the person is doing it for the right reason. If he were to allow anyone and everyone to get up whenever they felt the urge it would basically become a talent show on Sunday. If the person feels they are being called to sing the song then sing it to him in private in the form of a prayer. If they are truly mature in their walk they wouldnt need to "Perform" their song in front of people. Dianna, I disagree not everyone should have a say in everything. If you want to take a vote on what to serve at the Christmas luncheon sure,what the kids should wear for thier Easter song sure,What ould be a resonable amount to pay for rent on the building down the street NO!!! Just as in the work place does your boss come to you for your vote when he wants to give raises or when he wants to go with a new insurance company? NO!!! The church, in the structural,sense is run as a business and that business is looked after by the officers of that business e.g. Presiden,Vice President, Treasurer.Those are the people who make the decisions not the workers. As far as the song if the person is spiritually mature and not doing it for self glorification then perhaps they should be allowed to sing, But the Pastor should be the one to make the decision because hopefully he would know if the person is doing it for the right reason. If he were to allow anyone and everyone to get up whenever they felt the urge it would basically become a talent show on Sunday. If the person feels they are being called to sing the song then sing it to him in private in the form of a prayer. If they are truly mature in their walk they wouldnt need to “Perform” their song in front of people.

]]> By: T_Turner http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3513 T_Turner Fri, 18 Jul 2008 17:08:33 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3513 Diana, not to pry. I don't know you or what church you go to so this is just a generalization, for I sense something deeper from between the lines. Child seek the wisdom of God and ensure that it is His wisdom and not the heart of man by aligning it with all of His word, it must match. The human heart is very deceitful, just look through the bible and you will see this. I personally like Psalm 64:6 "As they plot their crimes, they say,“We have devised the perfect plan! ”Yes, the human heart and mind are cunning."; Psalm 78:18 "They stubbornly tested God in their hearts,demanding the foods they craved." and Psalm 140:1-3 "O Lord, rescue me from evil people. Protect me from those who are violent, those who plot evil in their hearts and stir up trouble all day long. Their tongues sting like a snake; the venom of a viper drips from their lips." If you look at the title of this article its call, "Another Great Deception…". On a personal note, from what I've seen on this blog the wisdom God shares through Larry thou sometimes edgy is spot on and very timely. As for your point, if you and another church member are chatting on the phone about the church leadership, is this not gossip (what this post is about)? These are the very types of issues that tear churches apart. Using your example, you should counsel the individual to seek the guidance of the pastor? And this is where it should end. And don't get caught up in the next time you talk saying ,"so what did pastor say", that is just reigniting the flames of destruction. Unfortunately this kind of spiritual maturity rarely happens, yet it is desired by God. I hope this helps you and other in these types of situations. Go to the source and end the gossip. The desire of God first as believers is... Fellowship with Him daily, read ALL of His word, constantly be in pray, and bring honor to Him by participate in public worship at least weekly. Then we begin to spiritually mature. Diana, not to pry. I don’t know you or what church you go to so this is just a generalization, for I sense something deeper from between the lines. Child seek the wisdom of God and ensure that it is His wisdom and not the heart of man by aligning it with all of His word, it must match. The human heart is very deceitful, just look through the bible and you will see this. I personally like Psalm 64:6 “As they plot their crimes, they say,“We have devised the perfect plan! ”Yes, the human heart and mind are cunning.”; Psalm 78:18 “They stubbornly tested God in their hearts,demanding the foods they craved.” and Psalm 140:1-3 “O Lord, rescue me from evil people. Protect me from those who are violent, those who plot evil in their hearts and stir up trouble all day long. Their tongues sting like a snake; the venom of a viper drips from their lips.”

If you look at the title of this article its call, “Another Great Deception…”. On a personal note, from what I’ve seen on this blog the wisdom God shares through Larry thou sometimes edgy is spot on and very timely. As for your point, if you and another church member are chatting on the phone about the church leadership, is this not gossip (what this post is about)? These are the very types of issues that tear churches apart. Using your example, you should counsel the individual to seek the guidance of the pastor? And this is where it should end. And don’t get caught up in the next time you talk saying ,”so what did pastor say”, that is just reigniting the flames of destruction.

Unfortunately this kind of spiritual maturity rarely happens, yet it is desired by God. I hope this helps you and other in these types of situations. Go to the source and end the gossip.

The desire of God first as believers is…
Fellowship with Him daily, read ALL of His word, constantly be in pray, and bring honor to Him by participate in public worship at least weekly. Then we begin to spiritually mature.

]]> By: Dianna http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3512 Dianna Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:13:27 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3512 It is sad to see someone so angry at churches, because like I said before, churches are made up of sinners. No one can be as perfect as God, Jesus himself. We all try our best, sometimes we screw up, because we are not perfect, that is why we need God to run our church. As far as needing to know everything that is gowing on in the church, tithing, everyones personnal business, etc... That would be in a way gossipping. So, those kind of things should be kept in confidence. But, when issues arise why hide them? Ask the church family to pray about what is going on and take a vote. Because it's not "joe's" church but God's church and we all work together to make it work. Everyone should have a say. Take for example: say Sally loves to sing but she has a terrible voice and she comes to the pastor and says she would love to share this wonderful song that touched her heart and she feels that God wants her to share it with everyone, could she please sing it next sunday? Well, why would it matter if she has a terrible voice? Her heart is in the right place and she feels that God is talking to her. So would she have to audition? to make sure she doesn't embarrass anyone? Who has the right to tell her no, when she feels God is telling her to share this? Just an example, let me know what you think. This is what I mean by hiding things to the church looks good. -Dianna *on a personal note, I am not bashing on our church these are just opinions in general about churches in general, this is a very interesting and elightening blog. It is sad to see someone so angry at churches, because like I said before, churches are made up of sinners. No one can be as perfect as God, Jesus himself. We all try our best, sometimes we screw up, because we are not perfect, that is why we need God to run our church. As far as needing to know everything that is gowing on in the church, tithing, everyones personnal business, etc… That would be in a way gossipping. So, those kind of things should be kept in confidence. But, when issues arise why hide them? Ask the church family to pray about what is going on and take a vote. Because it’s not “joe’s” church but God’s church and we all work together to make it work. Everyone should have a say. Take for example: say Sally loves to sing but she has a terrible voice and she comes to the pastor and says she would love to share this wonderful song that touched her heart and she feels that God wants her to share it with everyone, could she please sing it next sunday? Well, why would it matter if she has a terrible voice? Her heart is in the right place and she feels that God is talking to her. So would she have to audition? to make sure she doesn’t embarrass anyone? Who has the right to tell her no, when she feels God is telling her to share this? Just an example, let me know what you think. This is what I mean by hiding things to the church looks good.
-Dianna
*on a personal note, I am not bashing on our church these are just opinions in general about churches in general, this is a very interesting and elightening blog.

]]> By: Jimmy Mac http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3507 Jimmy Mac Fri, 18 Jul 2008 04:58:27 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3507 JF-54, Great observation! You are right. As long as people think they run the church, it will ultimately fail. BUT, if they humbly submit and allow God to run His church, it can never fail. I pray that you find a Christ centered church to fellowship with (if you haven't already). My observation is that you are very angry with churches in general (as many people are). I just hope that God will soften your heart and direct your path. God bless JF-54,

Great observation! You are right.

As long as people think they run the church, it will ultimately fail.

BUT, if they humbly submit and allow God to run His church, it can never fail.

I pray that you find a Christ centered church to fellowship with (if you haven’t already). My observation is that you are very angry with churches in general (as many people are). I just hope that God will soften your heart and direct your path.

God bless

]]> By: JF_54 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3504 JF_54 Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:39:14 +0000 http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/06/25/another-great-deception/#comment-3504 See as long a s people think they run things the church will ultimatley fall!!!! See as long a s people think they run things the church will ultimatley fall!!!!

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