Jun 25 2008
Another Great Deception…
Check out what Paul wrote in the Book of Romans 2:1 about idol talk.
You may be saying, “What terrible people you have been talking about!” But you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you do these very same things.
Don’t get caught up in work gossip or better known as trash talking. Satan does not long for us to worship him. He just wants us to forget God and His wise instruction “The Bible”.
Get into His word daily.
Ive spent my life not serving the Lord,thus serving satin. I realize now that I have been a devil worshipor.The best way I have found to stay focused on our Lord is to search the scripture daily and alot of times just keep my mouth shut.By spouting off at the mouth I can cause others t stumble.Atleast when Icant captivate my own thoughts I can seek forgiveness from God and not worry about how many others Ineed to seek out to ask forgiveness of this sin of gossip which can spread like wild fire and be very damageing and disruptive to mine and others walk towards the Lord.
Ive spent my life not serving the Lord,thus serving satin. I realize now that I have been a devil worshipor.The best way I have found to stay focused on our Lord is to search the scripture daily and alot of times just keep my mouth shut.By spouting off at the mouth I can cause others t stumble.Atleast when Icant captivate my own thoughts I can seek forgiveness from God and not worry about how many others Ineed to seek out to ask forgiveness of this sin of gossip which can spread like wild fire and be very damageing and disruptive to mine and others walk towards the Lord.
I agree with Jammer,
Gossip can hurt and it is very damaging. When you have an issue it is always best to go to the person involved and keep in between the correct parties. If you have a concern go to that person. I know from experience it is very hard to do and not always comfortable. You might be surprised by what happens. I also believe you should never hide things, especially is a church. Whatever goes on in the background should be in the open. Churches are made up of people and none of us are perfect , only God is. Why then do many churches hide the imperfections to put on a “perfect” show? Because in my opinion, this is how gossip starts, because people, or churches are hiding things because they want to appear “perfect?”. Just my two cents.
-Dianna
I also agree Gossip is the devil’s tongue and should be put to a stop by anyone who witnesses it.
Churches are people not buildings or programs, people are not perfect however church in some ways is a business that has to be run by someone. The leadership in a church is responsible to be there for others, that come to fellowship. If you are called to leadership in a Church you must put aside any petty problems you may have and make sure the fellowship does not suffer from them. As human beings sometimes this is hard to do, but God calls you to leadership to lead and take care of others.
Leaders also need to take time to share with other Leaders of the Church and Pray with each other to work through any difficulties that the building or programs or business may have.
Some issues good or bad are just not meant to be shared with all the fellowship. Some people are just not equipped to know all that goes on and if Leadership is not careful you can stunt someone’s growth in God, or worse, push them away from God altogether.
So people if you are in Leadership find someone you can pray with that you trust to be a confidant. I encourage you not to share the business side of the Church with everyone, just those that are strong enough to help.
Dianna, not to split peas but you seem to be in conflict with yourself. Correct the church is people and people are just that people. Prone to error and failure. Let me ask you this first, how does gossip start when there is nothing to speak about? And if it does start from no knowledge, just think how much more there would be if you know everything. Are you always transparent about your life to everyone? Or do you hold back at times? We all hold back because we are not always certain that everyone will take and handle the information (knowledge) as a godly individual, after all as you have pointed out we are imperfect humans. Is it necessary to know everything about everyone? When was the last time they went to the bathroom, how much money do they make, how many credit cards do they have, when was the last time they had relations with their spouse and so on. Do you or I need to know these things? No. Do we need to know when someone has had an affair and has confided in the church leadership for counsel? NO! Do you or I need to know intimate details of a fallen brother or sister? NO! Often we tend to want to know these things about others just so we can compare ourselves (like a measuring stick) and more often than not, too start gossip. Having been in leadership in the past, I cannot imagine anyone wanting to be involved in every detail of the business and emotional side of church (thank God for those in leadership that are submissive and care for and carry, yes carry these very painful burdens for us). Chew on this for a moment or two, Christ is perfect and as long as He is in control His Church is perfect. It is the blood of the perfect lamb that makes us perfect, nothing we say, do or know can add to that.
We all need to pray for and submit to the Godly appointed leadership of Christ’s Church.
God’s will be done.
I don’t like pea’s so I’m not going to split any with any of you. All of you make good points, but I must ask this, does the church really try to hide all of it’s imperfections? If so don’t you think it would have done a much better job of it. The church does try to care for it’s issues internally and this is biblical. We are to take our quarreling to the church not the world system. In doing so the church needs to handle each situation discreetly, not to hide or cover up, but to protect all parties involved from worldly gossip that once decided the individuals can then begin to heal without the social issues of gossip.
The problem and Dianna eluded to it is the fact the we are imperfect people. As imperfect people we cannot manage a perfect church, but Christ can. The books of Timothy and Titus talk about what it takes to be a manager of Christ’s church and if you look at the leadership traits it reveals that the person needs to be spiritually mature and sensitive to the will of God. Which by the way is contrary to the way we as people long to live.
So I will ask the question this way, why is it that the church leadership doesn’t share everything with the congregation? Simple, when we realize that we are all growing, some more than others, some weaker than others, the church congregation as a whole cannot handle the sensitivity of some of the issues that come to her. This is why men called to lead must for a season, sometimes very long season, be tested and watched to see how they handle the tests that come before being promoted to formal leadership.
What I have discovered over the years is those that want to know only desire so for personal satisfaction and agendas. So those that are reading, is it in the best interest of Christ’s church that you or I should know these things. In other words, why do we need to know? Is it all about you and I or Christ?
As the great spokes person of the 21st century, Jack Nickelson said, “You want the truth? You can’t handle the truth?” This is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo true, like little babies only desiring milk from their mothers breast!
Living life to a different beat…
Tell me what I want to know and let me do what I want to do, but don’t expect me to be accountable for anything because I have an excuse.
Someone else needs to accept responsibility for everything that I don’t want to do!
The church is always left to deal with all the dog crap that everyone has dumped on it. Funny, those that dump on the church complain about all the dog crap and then leave while much of the dog crap with put there by them!
I found these quotes sometime ago and used them in my college program on accountability. It is human nature to look for the flaw in the diamond never seeing the magnificent creation.
Here’s my 2 cents, can I get my change please
why should people be allowed to know all the details of the church? i think if you feel you need to be apart of one you have the right to all the details. if not what is being hid from you. ask the questions like diana has, people step forward and expose the church for what it really is. dont fear people that is what religion is, people.
I agree that all must strive to be a significant part of the fellowship. And ultimately want to be in leadership. This is what God intends for all of us. Taking ordinary people and making them disciples, teachers, leaders.
However one in leadership should not pick and choose what they want to be a part of.
When you are talking about exposing the Church for what it is are you referring to people or the building. The Church (people) in time will be exposed and made transparant.
The Church (building) has to be run by someone and not everyone is able to do this. Just like being employed somewhere, however you cannot call in sick with God, and most importantly quit your job when things are rough. Running the business aspect of the Church (building) should not be made public knowledge. There should be a few like minded individuals with the same goals and spiritual beliefs that take care of the business aspect of the church (building). They should be as explained in 1Tim 3. And if they are not exhibiting these biblical standards they should be held accountable.
Ultimately, people are people and prone to making mistakes, so no Church(building) is perfect. However all those in leadership are held to a higher accountability and should always strive for perfection when doing the business of Gods beautiful creation (the church (building), and the service for the fellowship.
Terri Jo, I somewhat agree but (BIT BUT) you say people in leadership can not quit, but that is entire false. There are ministers, pastors, priest and so on that leave there positions daily. Who do you validate that this claim? And you you mean that the church a few yes people in position to conform to the leadership needs? Just look at TNN and see for yourself. Very interested in your thoughts.
Terri Jo,
If we are all called to become leaders within the church, why would you then say the leaders are held to a higher level of accountability. Isn’t this in itself placing them on a pedestal? Granted the business leadership is responsible for the accounting, but at the end of the day if they high tail it (leaving dodge) who them is responsible?
Who is in control of your church? What says you…
We need to realize that good and evil both exist and than satan will and has attacked the church from within, just like in the days of Jesus with Judas. We must learn to submit to God and his will and as we mature as Christians, God’s will will guide us. If you are in a personal relationship with God you can see who in leadership either walks with the Lord or the world. But this can only be seen if you yourself are walking intimately in the counsel of the Holy Spirit. The Church belongs to Christ and it is all of our jobs to submit to His authority.
This you have with the wonderful pastor of VRM, Godly wisdom far beyond Larry’s years.
God Bless,
It is so saddening to see ministers, pastor and priests leaving their positions, but we must look at that on an individual basis. Are they leaving their positions and moving on to other mininstries and continuing to follow Gods plan, or are they leaving everything? Turning their back saying Lord “I started your work but now it is just too much for me”. There is a big difference. We should always be growing and serving and working for the Lord. Some have more time than others but if we call ourselves Christians we must be working for the Lord in some way serving and helping others to grow.
I must admit I do not watch TNN and probably never will, so I am not sure what you are asking me on that subject. We, in our fellowship currently have about 5 people that are the core leadership. What that means in our group is they are the ones who teach, plan programs, take care of congregation needs. These are the people who have been there since day one. We have a leadership meeting once a month and go over concerns, plans for the ministry, and we study Gods word to make sure we are doing all we can to see that His plan is followed through. We have many in our fellowship who are there whenever there is work to be done, when we go out to feed the hungry, when we need cooking done for special events. And then we have those who come to church on Sunday and for now that is all they can commit to. Our Pastor teaches quite often that this is simply not enough. We must all do more than just come to church, but only if you are doing work for the Glory of God and not self glorification. Someone young in their walk may become too proud if put in leadership and therefore fall into self glorification. It is very difficult to know when someone is ready. Only God knows that.
Not one person in the fellowship is on any higher level than anyone else. Our Pastor stresses that quite often. God does not look at the Pastor any different than the person who stands on the street corner asking for help. However, when I say held at a higher accountability I mean, look at it this way, If you saw Joe, who you sit next to in church every sunday, sitting at the bar at the local pub having a few beers, would you feel the same way if that was your Pastor? If you go to church on Sunday and the praise team leader is in a bad mood giving everyone attitude would that affect you more than if it was
the person who sits in front of you in the pew? That is what I mean by a higher accountability. The people who are working in the services must be an example to others. Otherwise why would anyone want to try harder to find joy in the Lord if the ones in leadership don’t act or teach any different.
Again this is just what I have examined over the years of my Christian walk. I have left leadership positions before because I felt where I was at was not enough. I wasn’t growing. I was stuck in a job that I felt I was doing out of obligation. I am by no means done growing but I feel with prayer God will never steer me in the wrong direction and He never wants me to quit!!!!!!!
Oh, by the way, Beverly, I always love your posts. You have never met Pastor Larry but you are so encouraging. Larry is very transparent in his teachings. He is a wonderful teacher of Gods word. He will let you know if he believes you are straying from the Truth. Sometimes this is hard because his job is not to please anyone but God and some people only want to be told what makes them happy and none of the rest.
Beverly, you have been such a postitive influence on this blog and you are also very transparent in your faith. I am sure you have touched many lives around you. Keep it up.
Why beat around the bush, this post is about gossip and what are you doing, IDIOTS!
Terri Jo, it looks good on paper but it doesn’t always work out. People on the committees will come and go and others will overtime loose interest and that is when stan attacks. He give people encouragement for pride, envy and covetness and in time the foolish self-center (i deserve more or this or that or they don’t appreciate all I do) sets in. Once that does it becomes easy (human nature) to abandon God’s way and become the way.
I would warn you and others to take great strides to watch over the shepherd and the business he manages. Many churches have been raped by wolves in sheep clothe. Even when your walking in the word, satan has a way of fooling or maybe blinding even the most sincere at heart.
On the issue of pastors leaving their jobs, you don’t have to look far to see that some of these people are in it for the wrong reasons. And while the reasons are diverse, there is only one reason to serve in such a capacity, and that is to serve others for the Lord. Unfortunately not all come for that reason, why else would a person submit to lead a church and then leave that church to go to another without a proper replacement? Why would they quit after 3 years because it was not what they thought it would be like? These are just two of the reasons. If there is a God and if He wills (desires) people to be in these positions don’t you all think that God would also provide the strength and in the case of moving to another ministry or church, the necessary replacement.
Here are a few of the conclusions I have heard about God and church.
1. Either there is not a God (Which I do not believe) and we’ve made all this crap up in our tiny heads.
2. God doesn’t really care about us and what happens (this is rediculous)
3. The church is made and controlled by people so it is corrupt. (Some are, but the one true church belongs to Christ)
4. God allows those congregations that have chosen to remain in the dark, ignoring all the warnings and biblical truths to die out and burn up. (we have free will and over time satan and man will always reveal their true heart)
5. God does clean house and sometimes it requires a total remodel
I personally do not like the church for what it has become and is doing today (I long for CHURCH and I wait eagerly for it’s return). People are blind and stupid to think that they can worship in a building and have a well spoken man encourage them while remaining true to themselves, the world and God.
Choose wisely with open eyes for you will soon become what you desire.
Sorry for the gammer and spelling I was in a hurry yesterday and I type with my toes.
The church (God’s) needs to reflect the Word of God. Terri Jo pointed out what God’s guidelines are for leaders within the church in 1 Timothy. Then we must take it that God knows what he wants His church to reflect.
Now do all churches reflect God’s Word? Unfortunately, No. But, we cannot say that all churches are NOT living for God. We must be in fellowship with fellow believers. Now, this is a difficult thing to do with the church choices that we have today. If we go to a mega church, some may have a great pastor, but it’s too big to be held accountable (you may get lost in the crowd). Some smaller churches want you to sign a belief statement, before being able to become a member (which, in my book, is not biblical). And if you do not agree with everything that they have on their statement, where does one go from there?
Here is my point, RELIGION (in some of it’s ways) has become corrupt, adding man made traditions to their bi-laws. Authentic living is taking God’s word (and only God’s word) in it’s entirety, from cover to cover, and applying it to our lives (which some churches are doing a great job of).
It all goes back to the leader of the church, God. And if He is truly choosing the leaders of His body, then who are we to argue. Remember Moses and when God told them to cross the Jordan and claim there promise land? The people wouldn’t listen to God’s chosen leader, Moses, and so they never got to see the promise land.
Now, back to the original post. Gossip. The book of James makes it very clear about gossip (the use of our tongues). But to say that “I”, a member, “need to know all aspects of the church”, isn’t this the same as sitting next to that water cooler wanting to know all the juicy gossip. Believe me, sometimes it’s better not to know. Imagine how one might feel to find out what their church’s monthly tithing is; what if it is this ridiculous amount of money (where does it all go) or what if there is hardly anything ( then you would try and ponder who is not giving back to the Lord). What if everyone did know everything, then all you would end up with is too many Chiefs and not enough Indians. Every person would want their voice to be heard and all you would end up with would be anarchy.
But above all, the one and only thing to truly care about is our own personal relationship with God and are we living our lives to glorify Him.
Sorry for the rambling.
God bless
Sorry, what I meant to say was first and foremost, not:
But above all, “the one and only” thing to truly care about is our own personal relationship with God and are we living our lives to glorify Him.
Jimmy Mac, I agree with you on all the points but one and I think it’s a wording error. We should sign a statement of faith to become a member of a church. Not a church constitution of special rules and guidelines that they want to enforce. Usually this includes ideas that are not iron clad within the pages of the bible, like smoking, birth control and alcohol. But we must profess as they did in the early church the terms of our faith which is in Christ. The statement of faith should only include those things that are a necessity for salvation and biblically solid. Just like when a church give the statement of their faith, when you sign that roll you are agreeing.
Here’s the human side, I can say I agree and six months later say I never agreed. So we must consider that condition and as hard as it sounds make each of us accountable to the same biblical standards. If signed you can always go back and say is this your signature, if so what has changed since that time. I best stop or I will continue to ramble, I hope everyone gets the point.
Well at least as I have read your post over the years or so I think this is what you mean. If not I apologize yet will remain solid in this understanding. This was the major theme for the early 1 century counsel meetings spoke of in Acts. Clarifying what is biblical vs. religious.
Have a great day yee-all
Thank you T_Turner,
It was a wording error. I was referring to a church constitution.
Hope you have a blessed day yourself.
It is so nice to see some intelligent conversation going on, I love to see people who can admit “maybe I dont have it all right, but I am willing to listen to others and learn”.
I got some very bad news this morning about a once “Mega Church” here in my hometown. They have fallen from a fellowship of 5000 or so a few years ago to just under 100. They have a beautiful building and grounds that God has helped them to pay for free and clear but something or someone has allowed Satan to come in and tear it apart. What happened?
I mourn for some of my friends who have been hurt in the process of Satans evil deeds.
People, Satan is everywhere, even here as we speak, there is a spiritual battle happening and it is very real.
May God protect His people from the evil that Satan is spreading all over this world. May God bless you all.
See as long a s people think they run things the church will ultimatley fall!!!!
JF-54,
Great observation! You are right.
As long as people think they run the church, it will ultimately fail.
BUT, if they humbly submit and allow God to run His church, it can never fail.
I pray that you find a Christ centered church to fellowship with (if you haven’t already). My observation is that you are very angry with churches in general (as many people are). I just hope that God will soften your heart and direct your path.
God bless
It is sad to see someone so angry at churches, because like I said before, churches are made up of sinners. No one can be as perfect as God, Jesus himself. We all try our best, sometimes we screw up, because we are not perfect, that is why we need God to run our church. As far as needing to know everything that is gowing on in the church, tithing, everyones personnal business, etc… That would be in a way gossipping. So, those kind of things should be kept in confidence. But, when issues arise why hide them? Ask the church family to pray about what is going on and take a vote. Because it’s not “joe’s” church but God’s church and we all work together to make it work. Everyone should have a say. Take for example: say Sally loves to sing but she has a terrible voice and she comes to the pastor and says she would love to share this wonderful song that touched her heart and she feels that God wants her to share it with everyone, could she please sing it next sunday? Well, why would it matter if she has a terrible voice? Her heart is in the right place and she feels that God is talking to her. So would she have to audition? to make sure she doesn’t embarrass anyone? Who has the right to tell her no, when she feels God is telling her to share this? Just an example, let me know what you think. This is what I mean by hiding things to the church looks good.
-Dianna
*on a personal note, I am not bashing on our church these are just opinions in general about churches in general, this is a very interesting and elightening blog.
Diana, not to pry. I don’t know you or what church you go to so this is just a generalization, for I sense something deeper from between the lines. Child seek the wisdom of God and ensure that it is His wisdom and not the heart of man by aligning it with all of His word, it must match. The human heart is very deceitful, just look through the bible and you will see this. I personally like Psalm 64:6 “As they plot their crimes, they say,“We have devised the perfect plan! ”Yes, the human heart and mind are cunning.”; Psalm 78:18 “They stubbornly tested God in their hearts,demanding the foods they craved.” and Psalm 140:1-3 “O Lord, rescue me from evil people. Protect me from those who are violent, those who plot evil in their hearts and stir up trouble all day long. Their tongues sting like a snake; the venom of a viper drips from their lips.”
If you look at the title of this article its call, “Another Great Deception…”. On a personal note, from what I’ve seen on this blog the wisdom God shares through Larry thou sometimes edgy is spot on and very timely. As for your point, if you and another church member are chatting on the phone about the church leadership, is this not gossip (what this post is about)? These are the very types of issues that tear churches apart. Using your example, you should counsel the individual to seek the guidance of the pastor? And this is where it should end. And don’t get caught up in the next time you talk saying ,”so what did pastor say”, that is just reigniting the flames of destruction.
Unfortunately this kind of spiritual maturity rarely happens, yet it is desired by God. I hope this helps you and other in these types of situations. Go to the source and end the gossip.
The desire of God first as believers is…
Fellowship with Him daily, read ALL of His word, constantly be in pray, and bring honor to Him by participate in public worship at least weekly. Then we begin to spiritually mature.
Dianna, I disagree not everyone should have a say in everything. If you want to take a vote on what to serve at the Christmas luncheon sure,what the kids should wear for thier Easter song sure,What ould be a resonable amount to pay for rent on the building down the street NO!!! Just as in the work place does your boss come to you for your vote when he wants to give raises or when he wants to go with a new insurance company? NO!!! The church, in the structural,sense is run as a business and that business is looked after by the officers of that business e.g. Presiden,Vice President, Treasurer.Those are the people who make the decisions not the workers. As far as the song if the person is spiritually mature and not doing it for self glorification then perhaps they should be allowed to sing, But the Pastor should be the one to make the decision because hopefully he would know if the person is doing it for the right reason. If he were to allow anyone and everyone to get up whenever they felt the urge it would basically become a talent show on Sunday. If the person feels they are being called to sing the song then sing it to him in private in the form of a prayer. If they are truly mature in their walk they wouldnt need to “Perform” their song in front of people.
First, I want to say it’s great to see this blog rollin’,
Diana,
I don’t want to get way of course so I will share with you a couple of question to ponder. That were give to me a few years ago as I too was in a similar situation.
Who is the head of the church? Christ
What is a church? All those that live for Christ
What is a member? Those that live for Christ
What are your real entitlements as a member? Submission and suffering for the glory of God
Who appoints the leadership in Christ’s church? Christ
Who are we as members to challenge Christ? ……………
If one know biblically that the church they belong does not walk in the counsel of the Lord and have tried to work through it with God and the church leadership, leave and don’t look back.
Take great caution though, is it that you are fleeing a Satan infested congregation or are you being exposed to the light and not liking it.
Psalm 125:4
O Lord, do good to those who are good,whose hearts are in tune with you.
Everyone, I really like what Pastor Larry wrote in his article Take a Little off the Sides Please! Take a second and go back to it and read. We have such a hard time with things that we do not understand. It is the responsibility of the pastors to guide us and manage Christ’s church. Trust that God is in control.
http://www.verticalresponseministry.com/blog/2008/05/23/take-a-little-off-the-sides-please/
Watch out for my saber, it’s not sharp but it is to a point.
A church is a business????? wow, I must say, thats scarrrrryyyyy! I think that is the worst thing anyone can say about a church. A church is made up of people, we all are part, we all have gifts and work together as a whole, no one person should ever stand out over someone else! We are all working “not as a job” to glorify christ! Not be a business!
Hi all,
Such great communication as always. Thank you Jedi 12 for that refresher course. I like that one also. Dianna, yes, you are very correct. Worship, Fellowship and Bible Study should never be about a business, but there is a business aspect of a church.
Because the world has put so many stringent laws on Churches you must have an attorney, open a Corporation, get legal with the IRS and go through the rigorous duties of getting a 501C3 approved by the IRS so the Church does not get into legal trouble for Tithes, Church and State, and protection from those people who just want to see the Churches shut down. This part of it is a business and there is no other colorful way to look at it. Believe me when I say this is a very humbling and stressful part of opening a Church. Someone has to go through all the legalities. Once all the legalities are done they never go away and therefore have to be overseen by someone. During the week, all the tithes have to be recorded and reported to the IRS and the Corporation commission. This is the business aspect of it and that is just a small part of it.
A Church has many people who come for many reasons, you would hope and pray that it is just to worship, but in the real world that is just a small part. There are phone calls to make every day for counsel, there are hospital visits to make, there are sermons to plan and bible studies, and music to get together. Is this still not a business to you because I can go on!!!!
All in All, yes, it is Christ’s Church and with his love and grace all these duties are done by someone who has committed whole heart and soul to Him. Without the protection and guidence from God none of this would be made possible and there would be no Churches to speak of.
I love going to worship on Sundays and laying all at the foot of the Cross, it is so rewarding to see what God has done, but please dont ever think for one minute that there is no business aspect to the Church because most never know what all is involved to be able to open those doors for all to come. Once you do you appreciate just that much more the awesome greatness of our God!!!!!!!
Sorry to ramble, just very passionate about my Church.
JF_54, if you are still out there,
I came across this in my studies and thought of you:
Hebrews 10:24-25
Let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
I am still praying that you may find a Christ centered church.
God bless