The question, what religious group or association are you affiliated (a part) with? For those who have asked on this blog, you will not appreciate my answer, it is “The Body of Christ”. We are not of a splinter group, faction or organized political party with our own agenda. We are a Christian fellowship and represent just a small (very, very small) part of “The Body”.
Haven’t we figured it out? It is the world that wants us to remain separated. Look at what Jesus said in Luke 11:16-18, and I’ll use the King James for the sake of argument.
“16And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.
17But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
18If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.
To further confuse the matter, I’ve been asked if I was part of the emerging or evangelical church? Before we go there we need to establish guidelines for these words for this discussion.
Emerging Church: Emerging churches are communities that practice the way of Jesus within postmodern cultures. This definition encompasses nine practices. Emerging churches (1) identify with the life of Jesus, (2) transform the secular realm, and (3) live highly communal lives. Because of these three activities, they (4) welcome the stranger, (5) serve with generosity, (6) participate as producers, (7) create as created beings, (8) lead as a body, and (9) take part in spiritual activities.
Evangelical: I like how David Bebbington breaks it down; Conversionism, the belief that lives need to be changed; activism, the expression of the gospel in effort; biblicism, a particular regard for the Bible; and crucicentrism, a stress on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
Note that I have not included as some would like: Political affiliations, worship methods, or church doctrines, covenants or treaties. Sorry, they do not belong here!
So with which campaign do I hang my hat, the emergent or evangelical church? I stand for “The Church” as “One Body”. Sorry for the disappointment again. I do however agree with both the definitions and try to apply them both to my life and our ministry. I do not believe there is a correct answer beyond the Church. Those that do not agree, it’s OK. I’ll still be your friend.
Friends, we’ve come to know (wrongly) the emerging church as a bunch of renegade theology students that challenge all authority; marry any and everyone; anything goes as long as you do it in the name of Christ and love; and the only rule is that there are no rules. The extreme liberal left-wingers.
Evangelical’s on the other hand are simply; narrow minded; judgmental; intolerant; my way or the highway types. And are seen as a political conservative right-wing military faction.
Are either of these assumptions correct no, but that is how each looks at the other (to some extent). Meanwhile the world watches with pure enthusiasm, as we tear at each other’s heart. Last check, Christ came and hung on a cross for all those that would believe. Have you ever considered that these conflicts were Satan’s plan to weaken “The Body”? As long as we remain divided over non-essential beliefs we cannot proclaim the good news or exhibit the traits of Christ (to include loving our neighbor (enemy)) to the world.
Many of us have paid a great price to become authentic and accountable to Christ. We’ve given over to God, our families, friends, careers, salaries and security for an opportunity to taste the bitter sweetness of authentic faith. Have we gotten it all right? Not hardly. But I am confident that many of us are on the better path (not so left, right or perfect), just better. Seeking to be relevant to God, His word and His mission.
It’s not about us or them, but Him. As long as we try to remain in the center there is little room for Him.
Have I answered all the questions and solved all the problems, No. But now we have something to base an open discussion on.
Thursday, 21. February 2008
Interesting thoughts, what are the foundational beliefs you think we need to all agree on?
Friday, 22. February 2008
Your post sound more like a copout. Where do you stand Larry, you can’t sit on the fence. At some point you are going to be either for us or against us. As for your definitions they too are weak. The emergent church is more about acceptance and tolerance. Where is this mentioned above.
You don’t even even address your foundational beliefs. Is your God my God? Did Jesus die for our sins? Is the bible truly God’s word? What about same sex marriages? Is there absolute truth?
I await your response.
Friday, 22. February 2008
We all need to try to find common ground. It was never intended for each of us to be the exclusive way of Christ. Being a Christian should be a life long process of rights and wrongs, mistakes and errors all the while looking to Christ for guidance. We are only human.
I am neither emergent or evangelical (I like it), I am part of “The Body” however that looks.
Friday, 22. February 2008
I can’t help but to focus on the statement, “Have you ever considered that these conflicts were Satan’s plan to weaken “The Body”?”. To me this makes all the sense in the world. Isn’t this exactly what the opposite team wants; united they stand, but divided they fall. And LOOK at Satan’s plan in action: “You are either with us or against us”, strong words coming from a fellow “Christian”. It’s amazing how we, as human beings, can be manipulated into turning against one another because some worship or teach differently. If it all comes from the Bible, God’s living word, then who’s to say that’s wrong. I know I’m not a judge, there’s only one who can do that, God.
I picture this; there’s two churches, one Evangelical and the other Emergent, and dividing the property line is a 6 ft. block fence. Your walking by and sitting on that fence is Jesus Christ, enjoying the beauty of the day. Both churches are about to start, every one is walking in, so you stop to ask Jesus what church He’s affiliated with (for it is obviously the “right” choice). Do you honestly think that He would chose one over the other? Deciding which part of “The Body” is better. Of coarse not.
I imagine that when we get to heaven we will be surprised at who we see. There will be Catholics, Baptist, Evangelical, Emergent, etc. The only thing that matters is if you have surrendered your all to the Lord, study and exhibit the traits of Christ and have that personal relationship with Him. It won’t matter what church you were affiliated with.
That’s my take on it.
Also click on the “our church website” link on the right side and check out the ministry’s beliefs. Then you can know what Larry’s congregation believes in.
God bless
Friday, 22. February 2008
Tom, it is not a copout as you put it to have an opinion of unity. I thought even old school religion was for one body and one spirit in Christ, the catholic (universal) church. I understand that “The Body” is everyone who has accepted Christ (God the Son) in faith. Funny, there is no mention of either emergent or evangelical, just the church.
True Christianity was not, nor will it ever be about religion, titles, politics, buildings, programs or creeds. Christianity is a way of life. It is to love and care for those in need without the desire of seeking personal or corporate gain. It is living your life in such a way that it brings all the glory to the Father.
It was never about what we have or could ever do. It is about what Christ has already done and “It is finished”.
I purposely left much out of the post for the sake of length and conversation. It was great conversing with you this morning and I look forward to a long healthy relationship with you all.
More to come,
Friday, 22. February 2008
Jimmy Mac, are you saying Jesus would not pick. That he would simply sit there. Hardly.
Friday, 22. February 2008
I don’t mean to pick, but in Jesus’ day they did not have the apostle creed and anyway that belongs to the catholic religion. Are you saying they are the one true church?
Friday, 22. February 2008
I think you’ve missed another important point. Is it emergent or emergence? They are different and also causes great confusion. Yet they both come from a great need of reform.
From what I’ve seen on your blog I would categorize you more like emergence.
TomTom
Play life to a different kind of drum
Friday, 22. February 2008
My own opinion, I was a Catholic for many years and they are by no means the one true church. So many of the things I was taught are so far from scripture. I never understood why I had to go through a priest to confess my sins. Was I not good enough to talk to God directly? Well, enough of that as you can see I was not fulfilled by the Catholic Religion. I believe what Larry states is catholic by definition means universal (note the lower case letter.) Not the Catholic Church. Those of you who visit this blog and comment on what Larry teaches and tries to live by must have never visited the Church website. It is all there. I like Jimmy Mac’s comment “what Church did Jesus belong to?” Once again it takes us back to “The Body”. We are of one family one body so long as we live by His word and exhibit the traits of Christ to the world.
Friday, 22. February 2008
So we have Jesus sitting on a fence between the evangelical and emergent church. Which church does He go into? This sounds like the start of a really bad joke. Jimmy Mac, I get your illustration, it’s said that there are those that just want to pick fights and not contribute to this journey. As for you Henry… and others, Jesus is the head of the church and wherever He is the true body will follow.
How sad it would be if we (even knowing our nature and history) chose to walk past Jesus to get our seats in the building (formally known as the church). Have we all forgotten the price that was paid by Jesus when he chose to come to our religious establishment? The cross. Religion gave death and Christianity reestablished life.
Saturday, 23. February 2008
Terri Joe,
Interesting point you make about the catholic church. You did not receive fulfillment! This is the problem with the body today, it seeks out fulfillment for itself. We were created to be in fellowship with God. We should be seeking to bring glory to Him, just as Jesus did. Not looking for a elegant motivational speaker, large buildings with a multitude of programs. You know our kids need programs, heaven forbid we parents become responsible for the teaching of our offspring. These things in themselves are not evil. It is when we long for this or that over Him. It’s when we leave an assembly over this and that. … sorry for the ramble
I hope you have found an assembly that is teaching biblical foundational truth. One thats challenges each of it’s members to be relevant within it’s own community. Lovingly and patiently seeking the lost. And not using church for a fortress, entertainment, social hour and baby sitting. The typical modern christian… with hope, will soon be extinct.
Saturday, 23. February 2008
Thank you Doug Pruit, My thoughts exactly. Yes, my relationship with the Lord has now grown stronger since learning I could find him myself and not count on religious organizations to get me to him. Yes, the body of Christians that I now fellowship with are gathering for the same reason. To bring Glory to the Father for what he has done for us and learning what we can do for him through scripture.
Our Children’s relationship with the Lord should not start in a building but at home. However, there are children out there that need the building and people to teach them because they are not learning about Jesus at home. I don’t mind being the babysitter at church to help these children find Christ.
So nice to see you on the blog, I am growing weary of those who just want to argue.
God Bless
Saturday, 23. February 2008
Larry, you are correct Jesus Christ is the head of the church, but many will be lead astray by false teachers. When Jesus taught about love, it did not mean to forget the rest of the bible. Where do you get your authority? Should we just open the flood gates and allow all that what to come in the church rush in. Letting them defile themselves and our members. Wearing hats, perverted shirts, women with no modesty, kids with no respect, adults bare footed? You must draw a line, it is the responsibility of the pastors to protect the flock not open the pens so the wolves can come a feast.
There is a political agenda out there that would love to fill all our churches with the things that God so detests. Find forgiveness and seek the written truth.
Saturday, 23. February 2008
here wolfie, wolfie, where are you wolfie come on out now no one will hurt you. are you hungery? i owe a meal to someone hungry in the name of Jesus Christ, i offer it to you Henrietta. a little something that Larry taught me while i was wandering around with a hat on, with a perverted shit on, showing no respect, and often bare foot, stoned or drunk most of the time! so lets eat. dont worry ive had my shots (i think) and have even had a bath this week.
if you take time for real people with real issues…………….. ………. …………… …… ……………….. ……………… ………. …………. ……………. ………… ………………. …………………. SCREAM ……………. ……………………… CRY ……………….. ……… …………. …………….. …………….. SAD ……………….. …………….. FRUSTRATED ………… ………. ……… …………… …………………. …………… …………….. ………….. ………… ………. ……… never mind your mind is closed. and to think that God even loves you so i must to.
Hi Larry, my times up for now
Joe Joe The Amazing Circus Boy
Miami, the one in Florida
Saturday, 23. February 2008
Henrietta,
I am not going to give you much attention as your thoughts are so unthought out. You should take some time to pray and think before you post. You could really do some undeserved damage with your comments. I will be in prayer for you. I am thinking you should let everyone know what Church you are referring to so all those dirty, homeless, perverted, hat wearing, unmodest and unruly children know where not to go to be in fellowship as they are not welcome.
I do think Jesus was bare footed most of the time.
May your heart be open to the Love that Jesus showed ALL!!!
Tuesday, 26. February 2008
Henrietta,
It was churches that treated me the way you want to treat people that kept me away from GOD,and at one point in my life had him hating him for his what I thought was non exceptence and myself for not being GOOD or Rich enough for “THE” church! I used to cry myself to sleep at night when I knew their’d be no church for the girl with no shoes other than flip-flops and the girl with no dresses or skirts!
It was thanks to a man I never thought I’d love or get along with that taught me that I’d never be good enough but as long as I try to live for Jesus and have Him in my heart every day that he will embrace me and keep me warm.
If you turn those away that were once like me for their clothes or tatoos or lack of proper shoes how will they ever find Him you have just pushed a lost soul farther away from Him and all his love and glory! How will you explain yourself when your time comes?
I pray for you to find exceptence in your heart as Jesus had.You have now idea how my heart breaks for those you turn away as I once was.Thank you for listening
God Bless
Thursday, 28. February 2008
I am reminded of a passage in the bible where Jesus himself told us how others are to be treated…
For Henrietta-
Matthew 25:34-46
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
For those of us who do not speak old english-
Matthew 25:34-46
New Living Translation (NLT)
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ 37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[a] you were doing it to me!’ 41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[b] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ 44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ 45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ 46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
Holy Bible. New Living Translation copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers.
At all times we are to care for those that are in need. Most of the time what they need is to hear the Word of God and to see it lived. If we are pushing them away from the doors of the building on Sunday morning just because they have no close(inappropriate clothing), are sick(physically and spiritualy), unruly, and not what we think they should look and act like when church is going on, then who will care for them? The best way to show someone you love them, is to accept them the way they are and then show them the way God wants them to be, not the way we think they should be. I don’t know about anyone else, but for me if someone(human/no better than me) insists that I act a certain way, I am more likely to act in the opposite way. But if it is God wanting me to do it, then my love for Him can over power my human stubberness.
Just the ramblings of a lost and found person.